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Show Notes:

Michele Barard [00:00:58] Hey, guys, is Michele Barard from Urban Book Editor, host of Somewhere in the Middle with Michele Barard. I mentioned to you guys, if you were listening to the last episode of Somewhere in the Middle, that we would be having a separate special True Talk episode. Julia Black and I are gonna be getting into a topic a little bit deeper, a little bit longer this time. And it's just because the topic is so big. It's it really warrants a lot more discussion, a little bit more thoughtfulness. So, enjoy this episode. So, we are doing a special True Talk. This is like a little bonus True Talk. It's a little bit longer than the other ones. And that's why we're making it a bonus. And the topic required a little bit more than 10 or 15 minutes, which is what most of our True Talks end up being. So, Julia Black is with us. And welcome.

Julia Black [00:01:55] Thanks.

Michele Barard [00:01:57] So this is, I think, an interesting topic. You and I are both kind of, you know, book, word geeks, right?

Julia Black [00:02:04] Yes.

Michele Barard [00:02:05] I think that's safe to say.

Julia Black [00:02:06] That's absolutely safe to say.

Michele Barard [00:02:08] And you know that I have a particular pet peeve in literature, particularly Southern literature.

Julia Black [00:02:16] Yes.

Michele Barard [00:02:18] And people who know me know this. But, you know, there's an issue in my mind and I think a lot of folks would agree with me about this, that the way that African Americans, African American women, in particular, are represented in literature is tricky at best in the United States. And you know that I have a couple of novels, slash movies in particular, that just drive me to distraction. Even though I don't think they're bad books. I don't think the books were bad at all, but I think they're problematic in certain areas. And I feel like people don't spend a lot of time discussing where they're problematic. And that's where, you know, I want to frame this a certain way because it's important that everyone has representation in literature. Right. You know, you should have Hispanic stories. We should have black stories. We should have white stories. We should have purple stories, whatever. We should have all of these stories. Everybody has a right to share their story. I'm big on that. Share your story. Your story matters. But how we represent it makes a difference, too, right? Like who tells the stories? From what perspective should these stories be told, and everybody has a perspective, right? Everybody's entitled to their perspective. But what should be the predominant perspective that's put out there in mainstream literature, in particular? So. You know that one of my issues, particularly, as I said, was southern literature. But I think it's across most mainstream genres of literature. Is it African American conditions are sometimes either glamorized or romanticized in, I think, negative ways? And I'm going to. I like you know, I like to refer to television and movies because I think people are more exposed to those a lot of times.

Julia Black [00:04:15] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:04:16] Like there's a movie that I love is called Hustle and Flow. It's got Terrence Howard, Taraji P. Henson. I love Terrence Howard more than I love most things on Earth. Just so you know, so sexy. I'd bite him if I saw him today. Sexy, sexy. But and just a phenomenal actor. I think he plays a sociopath particularly well. And disturbingly well. But Hustle and Flow is the story of a pimp, a small-time pimp in Tennessee. I think is where is it? And his desire, his goal to become. You know, he wants to shift into hip hop. He wants to become a rapper. And his that journey and where that story takes him is really interesting. But there's certain things that they talk about in there about the history of music and jazz and in hip hop, southern hip hop in particular. And it's a really great film in a lot of ways. That concept, though, was then taken to. The small screen with the show Empire and. I couldn't bring myself to watch it. As much as I love Taraji, as much as I love Terrence Howard, I couldn't bring myself to watch it for political reasons. And the political reason was number one it was on Fox. Now, Fox doesn't like Fox News makes it clear they don't like a lot of people that look like me. So why was I going to sit there and watch Fox? I felt like it was exploitative. It was like black exploitation films of the 70s in some ways. And I was very uncomfortable with the idea of giving my eyeballs to Fox to exploit this story. That really was much deeper in a film. Right. And it basically turned into. In my opinion, again, I've only seen snippets of it, so I don't know how great the show is was whatever, but my concern was that it was glorifying what I would consider to be the worst of Black culture not the best of black culture, and I'm sure there was some balance in there. Like I said, I didn't watch the show, but I didn't watch it for political reasons because I have my concerns about it. And similarly, there are. What I think we're pretty good books that that are problematic in similar ways. And one of them, you know, we've talked about this. The help drives me to distraction. The secret life of bees drives me to distraction, and I think it's because of the tendency for these stories to almost romanticize the simplicity of black life or the, you know, the challenges that people were going through in those times. And then to have kind of either a white savior moment like in The Help, you know. Or in secret life of bees, which I think is much more common. The. What I think is much more common is you have a white character that comes in, creates chaos, causes problems in people's lives like real problems in people's lives. But it's all good. It's a coming of age story for the white girl. You know what I mean?

Julia Black [00:07:59] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:08:02] What are your thoughts about that?

Julia Black [00:08:04] You know, that's really interesting because. You know, I'm a I'm a middle-class white woman from California, from suburban California, so I didn't have a whole lot of exposure to black culture in general. And so, you know, I looked at the secret life of bees. What you're pointing out that this white girl came in and just created chaos? I was like, oh, yeah, that's a problem. Like the second you pointed it out. It was like, oh, absolutely. But why didn't I see this before? You know? But again, that just kind of talks to my ignorance about the whole kind of situation and how things have been portrayed. But when I read the book, I thought I looked at it and went, this is. I really appreciated the descriptions, whether they were right or wrong. And I don't know if they were right or wrong, but the feeling behind it seemed to be that it was a there was a love and a respect and an awe for black culture that is missing from a lot of, quote, "white culture." There is a deep. Yeah, I saw a deep of that and it seemed to me that she was trying to that that the author was trying to outwardly kind of appreciate that. Whether or not it was right or if that was some kind of cultural appropriation, I don't know.

Michele Barard [00:10:05] Well, I don't believe in that term cultural appropriation in that way.

Julia Black [00:10:08] OK.

Michele Barard [00:10:09] I'm going to be. I'm going to be frank with you. I think that in some not in that context, I think it's an appropriate term, but I don't think it is. I think you're right. The character was expressing was in awe of these be sisters who had this beautiful, peaceful life. Right. And.

Julia Black [00:10:28] And it was a life that she desperately craved.

Michele Barard [00:10:32] Well yeah because it was stable.

Julia Black [00:10:33] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:10:33] It was not violent. But I'm going to use the term. People aren't going to like some people are going to like this. But the little girl was technically what we would call white trash down south. She was she was white trash. And. And so there were there are a lot of elements to that. Right. Like the way her dad responded to finding out where she was. You know, there's I don't know if you've ever heard this. Maybe it's a Southern ism, but you know, it one of the things that I think has been perpetuated in American society is that it's better to be anything but black. So, there's a story that you'll hear some variation of it down south all the time is, you know, there's a white Sharecropper type person and a black sharecropper type person lives side by side. They're actually friends, you know, talk to one another, have a beer together, whatever. They both work in their land. They're doing their work. And then one day the black guy gets a mule. And he's out there working the land with the mule. The white guy sees the mule, goes in his house, gets a shotgun and goes and shoots a mule. And his son asks him, you know, Pop. Why'd you do that as your friend? Why you shoot his mule? And the gist of the statement, I don't remember the exact words of the story, but basically, you know. If I don't have a mule that black guy’s not gonna have a mule. Basically, is what it boils down to, because if I'm not better than a black guy, I'm not anything. And I think that's kind of the way that our society tends to be structured. You know, it's better to be anything but black. And so. When you use those terms, cultural appropriation, things like that, it's you have to recognize it. The reason that that term is there is because of that concept. You know what I mean?

Julia Black [00:12:43] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:12:45] But I wouldn't apply that term to the literature in this way. I don't think that's what that was. I think the author did express a certain amount of awe, but that's what that male character coming in. You know? Wanting to fight and all of that, right? That's really what that was about in so many ways. My kids better than these people. Why is she here with them, even though clearly these women were so much better than him in character?

Julia Black [00:13:10] Much better people much better people.

Michele Barard [00:13:15] But I think there's so many things that are problematic with that. And I point out those two books in particular because those were ones that really bothered me a lot. The Help for the Savior kind of reason also. Again, you know. The girl wants to tell this story to advance her career.

Julia Black [00:13:39] Yes.

Michele Barard [00:13:40] And she is not really understanding the potential danger to the people she wants to, "help." by telling their stories.

Julia Black [00:13:54] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:13:55] And that's a very real danger. At that time, that was

Julia Black [00:14:01] That was something and I can't remember if I if they'd pointed that out in the book or if that was a. If that was an understanding that I had as I read it. It's been probably seven or eight years since I read it. But I do remember thinking she was putting them all in jeopardy by doing this. And she's and she's writing this to, you know, to progress her career. And I personally felt that there that that lacked integrity, and she wasn't really thinking about anyone but herself. She wasn't thinking of the consequences of what was happening. And to me, that wasn’t cool. But you know. I don't. Yeah, I mean, even when we talked about this before, even having this conversation, I feel like I can't even make that judgment because I am a white middle-class woman and I don't even feel like I can say, hey, this isn't cool. Even though you know what I mean.

Michele Barard [00:15:06] Well, I don't know. I mean, I think there's a lot of sensitivity. I feel like if we don't have these discussions, then nothing ever gets resolved.

Julia Black [00:15:12] No, I, yeah.

Michele Barard [00:15:14] You know, I think it's important that we talk about these things and that people think about these things. More importantly, that people think about these things. You know if we don't talk about it. Who's gonna talk about it?

Julia Black [00:15:24] No. And I agree. No, I totally agree with you. And again, you know, like, there are things that I just because of my background. There are things that I didn't think about like you do when you came out like there is this. Why can't you just completely disrupt their lives? Like, oh, yes, she did. And, you know, and there wasn't really any conversation about how this disrupted their life, how this disrupted them. I mean, this that was he was huge. What she just completely she just kind of came in as a roll in and just your presence messed up everything.

Michele Barard [00:15:59] And that's the thing that I think a lot of people don't take into consideration, is that. Of course, it's fiction. So, you have to have conflict.

Julia Black [00:16:09] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:16:09] And but what's the nature of the conflict? Who creates the conflict? How does the conflict eventually get resolved? Or is it resolved? And is it resolved for the white character as a result for everybody?

Julia Black [00:16:24] But we can look at it. I mean, if we're gonna go into deep like literary theory here, we could look at it to say that. You know, she. Yes, she disrupted their lives. But. You know, from a society point of view, it is white people that are disrupting black people's lives. It is racism. It is. It is it is that so? Couldn't we look at it as a larger symbol?

Michele Barard [00:16:53] We could, but then the question is if we look at it as a larger symbol. What is the purpose of that particular examination? Is it just to say over and over again? Well, well, we disrupt their lives. Yay! That's just what happens.

Julia Black [00:17:09] Right.

Michele Barard [00:17:10] You know what I mean? So, I mean, because there's a violent end to it.

Julia Black [00:17:16] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:17:16] There's a violent end. And I don't. I'm not saying that everything has to have a happy ending, in fact, that's one of the pet peeves against American literature, American movies and things like that. But having the same story told over and over and over again in different ways. In the end, the black folks are the ones who get the short end of the stick in some way or you know. And so, in the movie version of Secret Life of Bees. Queen Latifah was in it, right?

Julia Black [00:17:48] Yes.

Michele Barard [00:17:49] You know, I and I've told you before. I'm so sick of seeing Queen Latifah solving white people's problems. If I see another movie where she's solving white people's problems, I'm going to lose my cookies because she's too fine and too talented and too amazing to always be put in that position. Where she's basically playing, you know. That kind of I don't want to call it an Aunt Jemima role, but that's what it feels like.

Julia Black [00:18:16] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:18:17] Aunt Jemima role. And that's not to be I don't mean to be pejorative in that sense, but that's really what it feels like. She's somebody Mammy. These mammy roles are exhausting. It's like if black actresses are either mammy's or prostitutes, it's there when you know. And what another movie I actually enjoy because I like watching Queen Latifah, its where she played the one in the last holiday. And she gets misdiagnosed with a terminal illness given X number of months to live or whatever. And she decides to spend all of her savings on a trip to Europe, you know, somewhere like in the Swiss Alps or someplace, you know, someplace where you wouldn't catch me dead skiing and all that. But she's up there, you know, and she's living fabulously because she's spending all her retirement money, you know. So, she's you know, she's tried everything on the menu. And these white folks take note, take notice of her. And the next thing you know, she's solving all their problems. That seems like that's how all of our stories are told, either. Either we are. You know. Over the top in in the in a street way, right, or we are mammy's and solving everybody's problems and that that disturbs me. And then there where are the consequences for the people who come in and oftentimes cause the chaos? You Know, of course in Last holiday that's not the case. But you know, in some of these books.

Julia Black [00:19:56] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:19:56] Where are the consequences for those people?

Julia Black [00:20:00] Yeah, I mean, that I think I think those are completely, completely valid things that I, you know, I'd never seen until you pointed it out.

Michele Barard [00:20:15] What do you find with women in general in literature, though, I mean? Because. One of the other issues like. We interview I interviewed a poet.

Julia Black [00:20:29] Yes.

Michele Barard [00:20:30] And she was particularly focused on the expression of black love in poetry, black sexuality and poetry. And that's something you don't see a lot of in published work.

Julia Black [00:20:44] Right.

Michele Barard [00:20:46] Certainly not at the mainstream level.

Julia Black [00:20:47] Right.

Michele Barard [00:20:50] And I distinctly recall years ago. And I cannot remember the name of the editor of this book or the woman who compiled this book, but she focused on female erotica. Because and this is just to show you how long ago that was, it was in probably late 90s, early 2000s when that book came out, because at the time there was no. There was so little, if any, modern female erotica, female-centered erotica.

Julia Black [00:21:27] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:21:29] Erotica of various kinds. All right. Or oftentimes has had been what had become mainstream was mostly written by men.

Julia Black [00:21:38] Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, I think. After I left college, I was an English major, I was a lit major in college, and so I'd read all kinds of literature that, you know, from all different time periods. And I was generally flustered and frustrated with the women characters that were in them, that were in the books that I read, the books and the stuff that I was reading. For. I mean, even though we were coming down to like Jane Austen or, you know, Louisa May Alcott or, you know, anyone, you know, even kind of, Willa Cather, but not so much. Willa Cather, I think was closest to having really strong female characters that stepped aside and were very different from the culture that they were supposed to be in. But when I left, what after I graduated and I started reading and started reading kind of for fun again, I've read a lot of, a lot of the novels that I've been reading are. Are much more recent. And while I'm too, I'm actually seeing a shift. I'm not as it's not going as quickly as I would like it to, you know, even if we do if we talk about Harry Potter. Right. We talk about Harry Potter. And there's so much so much good with Harry Potter, Hermione and Professor McGonigle, who are who and even, you know, even Mrs. Weasley and Ginny Weasley and all of these women all of these female characters are super strong female characters, they are still they still take a backseat to Harry.

Michele Barard [00:23:32] OK. But I'm going to I'm going to push back on that a little bit, because this is a, this is a Jesus story.

Julia Black [00:23:39] Okay. Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:23:40] If you I mean, if you recognize that if you recognize what it is, it's actually a Jesus story. So, because it's a Jesus story. That's the only way that anyone has envisioned the Jesus story where the you know, the white male savior and even though Jesus wasn’t white. He couldn’t have been. But, you know, even the white male savior is at the forefront of this thing. And he comes into his magical powers at, you know, at a certain age, because that's about that's about the time that Jesus started acting up according to the stories that I know, you know, started going and trying to learn and all this and going to temples. And then what about 13? Got pissed off and started to turn over the tables. So I say all this to say that that that's why I'm going to give you a little pushback on the Harry Potter story, although I understand what you're saying, because that's a I have I spent a lot of time with that particular you know, we're big Harry Potter geeks here.

Julia Black [00:24:48] Yeah. Now. So. Yeah. So are we big Harry Potter geeks of this house.

Michele Barard [00:24:52] Yeah. So, we spend a lot of time discussing this and thinking about this and the. The only thing that we can see it as is that it's an allegory for the Jesus story. You know, even the way that it's even the way that it ended up on the big screen. Dumbledore as a God figure and all that, so. But I understand what you mean. I mean but here's what I think that I think that there is a little room for. There. I don't think it's just about women characters being strong. I think it's about women characters being. Real and I think this sometimes is a tendency for. When we're talking about women in literature in particular, oh, we need more strong women characters. I don't think that's what we need. I think we need more characters that are more realistic about what women really are.

Julia Black [00:25:46] Yeah, and I would too, and I would agree I would agree with that. I mean, I think there is the. The issue with that, as I see it, is finding is, is being able to create a woman character that is real. That isn't a. That isn't a stereotype. I mean, I even right. Because even as an author, when you are a writer, when you're when you're creating a character, it's a caricature. And you try to make you try to make the characters as real and well-rounded as possible. But because of the nature of writing and because of the nature of what you're doing, it still is kind of a caricature. And there are some books that I think there are some authors. I think I've done a very, very good job. I think Diana Gabaldon does an incredible job with her Outlander series, with all of the characters. She's got very, very well-rounded characters, although she's doing it in a in a thousand pages a book. And there's like eight or nine books now in the Outlander series. So, she's got plenty of room to do it. And that's rare.

Michele Barard [00:27:10] Right. I mean, the average, the average popular novel runs between 70 and ninety thousand words, which is, so what can you do in that space?

Julia Black [00:27:22] It's hard to do. Yeah, it's hard to do that without creating. And that you know, there are there are authors that are doing it. And I think there are others that are trying. And actually, even if we're talking them and, you know, I think there are even. Even often if we're talking about, you know, Maya Angelou her characters are incredible. Toni Morrison her characters are, and I don't know. I mean, I would assume, you know, their characters are incredible. They're, they're complex. Toni Morrison's characters are super complex. So complex.

Michele Barard [00:28:01] Well, and I was a big Alice Walker fan.

Julia Black [00:28:03] Yeah. Alice. Yeah. Alice Walker. Same thing, so complex.

Michele Barard [00:28:05] But. But. I think that the issue is we can't I don't I think it's hard to. Not like, for example, Molly. I'll go with Harry Potter again. Molly. You know Mrs. Weasley. The Weasley mom.

Julia Black [00:28:26] Mm hmm.

Michele Barard [00:28:27] I kind of got her. I'm a mom, you know, I've got three kids. Mine are not in. They're not flying magical cars. I don't think I'm unaware of them flying cars.

Julia Black [00:28:39] No?

Michele Barard [00:28:43] I'm. I'm unaware. I don't know what a reality, but. But that. Kind of fierce protectiveness that. But while still being very soft and loving with them. Yeah. While being stern. That's kind of what, you know, I think most moms do. So, is it is that a stereotype or is that kind of how moms tend to be? You know what I mean? I think there's a difference between a stereotype and while this is kind of what the average mom tends to be like. I don't believe there's anything wrong with playing into that. When it becomes a stereotype is where you're dealing with. Like I said, this show I was having with Empire was I was concerned that it was going to end up being kind of this. Ghetto Dynasty's show basically, you know, like, oh, you know, these black folks finally got some money and look at that kind of a show. That's what I got concerned about. I should probably sit down and watch it. But that's what my concern was and that's why I didn't watch it, even though I loved those two actors together. Yeah, I loved that movie that I consider to be the start of it. Right. Of that of that series. But that's when I think you run the risk of tiptoeing into stereotype. Yeah. More so than anything else, because that's not necessarily the. The norm like it. And when people push that as a mainstream image, that is when I think it gets dangerous, where you're getting into a stereotype kind of role as opposed to.

Julia Black [00:30:36] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:30:36] Well, this is kind of how I think this is kind of a general representation of how many moms in you know, I'll say in the Western world, for lack of a better term tend to be.

Julia Black [00:30:49] Well, and you know, it's interesting when Mrs. Weasley because, you know. I'm. We've said this. I'm not a mother. So, there's a lot of that kind of fierce protectiveness that I don't understand from kind of evolutionary hormonal level. But the thing about Mrs. Weasley that I thought was most interesting is that I did see her as a caricature until the very until the bitter end started to change. There's a there's a scene. And I can't remember if it's in the movies or not, but there's a scene in the book where she's trying to get rid of a Bogart and. As that's happening, the bogart is turning into another Weasley kid. Another person that she loves that is dead. It's in Book 5 and it is very, very powerful. And all of a sudden, it's like, oh, she's not this, you know, this kind of stereotype, you know? And then later on, then you have, you know, like Dumbledore saying, oh, no, Molly Weasley is one of those that that clock. The fact that she was able to do this with that clock, that was brilliant. You know, like there really there are these hints, but you don't see it until the bitter end and not until she's not until she kills Bellatrix at the end where you're just like, wow, she's super powerful. But all you see her doing in most of the series is domestic stuff.

Michele Barard [00:32:22] But isn't that what most moms do?

Julia Black [00:32:30] Not in my world.

Michele Barard [00:32:33] Yeah. I want you to. I want I want. I want you to. I want you to. Really. I want to I. Here's what I really want you to pull back for a second. And really think about and really think about the moms that. You've seen. They've been powerful women.

Julia Black [00:32:58] And maybe, maybe.

Michele Barard [00:33:00] I'm going to guess that many of them subjugated a certain amount of their power to allow their spouses or others and their children to thrive.

Julia Black [00:33:17] Yeah. No, you're right. And I always. And maybe this is just because I'm not a mother, but I'm always like I always look at it with like, God, you're just so brilliant. Why are you? Why aren’t you doing this other stuff?

Michele Barard [00:33:35] You know, it's funny, I always I tell people all the time everything I do is I do for my kids. Everything I've ever done, everything I've done since the very first I've been for 27 years, everything I've done in some way, shape or form has been in service to that as my primary job. It doesn't matter if I am Out working a regular job if I'm freelancing, if I'm starting a business, if I'm at the school doing something, if I'm arguing with school administrators because I've had to do that, stand up for my kids at school, my kids don't want to see me come in. I already made it clear. Don't make me go talk to those folks because I will tell them what time it is. They don't know. They don't know me. They don't. You don't want me there. OK. Because I'm fiercely protective of my children. Everything I do is in service to them. Even now. And. I'm not saying that that's necessarily how it has to be, but I'm saying I think if you were to sit down and really talk with a lot of moms, you would find that that's how a lot of them actually are.

Julia Black [00:34:47] Oh, I'm not saying now. Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:34:49] But that's why I'm saying it's not a stereotype. It's because I think that's literally how so many of them are. No, that makes sense?

Julia Black [00:34:55] Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. And through and I actually don't I actually applaud that and think that's amazing. What? And maybe and maybe this is maybe this is the feminist in me going, you know, we're trying to do too many things. You know where there is this, we're told that we need to be great moms and great homemakers and have great careers and do all of the stuff. We're not getting a whole lot of help to be able to do all of the stuff for ourselves.

Michele Barard [00:35:27] OK. This is where I think there's a fundamental difference. OK, this takes it right back to race, though. I don't think you're going to like this. I don't believe in feminism the way that it's expressed in the United States.

Julia Black [00:35:39] Right.

Michele Barard [00:35:40] And the reason I don't believe in feminism, the way that it's expressed in the United States is because black women in this country have been raising other people's babies and not been able to raise their own. They've been working like dogs and not able to take care of their own families. And this concept of, oh, we've been told we've got to be this. We've got to be that. That's bullshit. Sorry, I'm calling bullshit on white women on this one because black women have been doing this. Hispanic women have been doing this. This is this is not new for us and the concept that you're that you're being told you're supposed to be able to do something. I think that's silliness.

Julia Black [00:36:23] And maybe saying that, you're told, is different. But there is this among the white women I know particularly. I mean, and I talk about the women that had careers or that started their own business. Well, and, you know, you and I have talked about it with kind of other people that we know where it's just like, oh, well, I can't I can't spend a lot of time. I can't spend as much time on my business or I can't spend as much time on my career because I need to be. I need to be doing it with my family. There is this under and I you know, and so.

Michele Barard [00:36:59] But that's how that's how life has been for everybody else.

Julia Black [00:37:01] Right. No. And I know I tell you.

Michele Barard [00:37:04] That’s why I call bullshit.

Julia Black [00:37:05] I totally see your point. But that's. But you know that I think that's part of the reason why there's this like. I don't know what the word is. Disappointment, pity, you know, it turns into encouragement because it's like, no, you're you know, I get it. You're doing everything for your kids. I totally get that. But you are so smart, and you have so much to offer. And if you are not super fulfilled, if you are not completely fulfilled at home raising your kids, then find a way to do something that is fulfilling for you. Find a career, find something that allows you to do everything or, you know, tell your husband he's got to start participating or whatever.

Michele Barard [00:37:54] I think that's great. I think that's great. But I think it's I think it's kind of a I don't know. I feel like this is kind of. This. This just seems I don't know. I have an issue with that whole line of reasoning because. I don't think that any. I don't think that. There were so many generations of women I look at black women who were never able to be, you know, fully fulfilled because they were limited by the society in so many ways. And I'm like, what makes you think you have a right to be 100 percent fulfilled all the time? I mean, I'm not saying you don't deserve it, but it's kind of it's. Put putting that out there as a concept of feminism to me is such a disingenuous discussion, because it doesn't take into account that the reason that you have the luxury to have that discussion now is because, you know, a gener or two generations ago, basically. So many. People had no opportunity at all to be fulfilled. And so, because the so much of the wealth in this country was built on the black, on the backs of black people and black women who were literally raising other people's kids and not able to take care of their own. You know, cleaning other people's houses and barely able to keep their own places straight., unable to get the kinds of jobs that like I the fact that I have the luxury. The fact that I have the luxury to do what I do is because there were generations behind me that had no luxury whatsoever. And so, to me, that's why in the book I end up getting a little frustrated with that kind of discussion, like there's no context. Here, there's no context. Like, my whole life is context, and I just see people who are living their lives without any context. And maybe that's the right way to do it. To just live your life with no context and just say, I want what I want. You know, and I want to be 100 percent fulfilled. And I get it. I want to be 100 percent fulfilled too. But at the same time. I want my kids to have a better life than I have, so I'm willing to, you know, kind of push that down a little bit. So that they can have what they need so that they can do better. You know what I mean?

Julia Black [00:40:31] Yeah. No, I totally see your point.

Michele Barard [00:40:36] And it is difficult. I feel like that's where the divide between black and white feminists end up coming up because we didn't have the issue of having to fight for the right to go work.

Julia Black [00:40:46] Right.

Michele Barard [00:40:48] We had to work.

Julia Black [00:40:49] You had to work. No, you're no you're totally right. You're absolutely right.

Michele Barard [00:40:56] So black feminists were actually spending most of their time fighting to save the lives of black men to get them rights.

Julia Black [00:41:04] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:41:06] You know, things like that.

Julia Black [00:41:07] Yeah. No.

Michele Barard [00:41:09] That's how black feminism ended up manifesting in a lot of ways. Not all the time. But that's one of the ways that black men, black feminism, if I say that I actually like the Alice Walker term womanism when talking about black feminists in particular. But that's where I think there a divide. And I think that's why we've had so many issues because, you know. I think there's no concept of that context. And. That's right back around to the literature and the stories that we tell ourselves, and we tell each other in this country.

Julia Black [00:41:44] So how do we not that not that we could. Not that we can solve this and.

Michele Barard [00:41:49] We can solve this Julia. You and I can solve anything because we're brilliant and we're powerful.

Julia Black [00:41:56] But how do we. But what you know, as. You know, what are the things that we can be doing? To, you know, try to.

Michele Barard [00:42:13] Bridge the Divide.

Julia Black [00:42:13] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:42:14] I don't know.

Julia Black [00:42:16] You know, I mean, as. I mean, is there. So, let's kind of let's go back to the literature. Well, it doesn't have to be the literature, but go back to literature. Here is it. And because this is where this is where my mind automatically goes when anything race related comes up, you know, can I comment on. Can I, as a middle-class white woman, comment on some of these issues with these books now that you've pointed out about how, you know, the girl in Secret Life of Bees just goes in and disrupts their whole lives. Can I point that out or is that something that I you know,

Michele Barard [00:43:01] I think you can.

Julia Black [00:43:03] Don't really understand because I'm white.

Michele Barard [00:43:05] I think you can't. I think I just I would ask. My white sisters. To just read with a more critical eye. Some of these stories. And really think about it from the other characters perspectives sometimes. That's really what I would ask. I would I would say, you know, when we. When we look at our stories in this country, you know, so much of it is colored by what they call America's original sin. I'm not sure how I feel about that term because. But so much.

Julia Black [00:43:49] That's about, that that term is used for slavery?

Michele Barard [00:43:52] Yes. OK. This is how I know you're not from down south. You know, because you'd known that right away. No. And you know, what's interesting to me, moving out to California is California is very, very, very white and Hispanic. I saw so few black people when I moved out here that for a second, I was like, OK, maybe I made a mistake. Like, I'm not used to, you know, I'm from a black city, New Orleans, or at least pre-Katrina. New Orleans was black city. Atlanta's a black city soon and down south. There are huge cities that have large concentrations, black people on the East Coast. You have that. So, coming out here and being out in the suburbs, there weren't that many white people. I was surprised. I'll be honest with you, because Atlanta that’s a black city, you know And so it's I think it's interesting, the dynamics, the. I remember a girlfriend of mine when she moved down here, young. Kind of give me a little bit of rundown on the race dynamics here. Being very, you know, things being very heavily Hispanic and all that. But I don't think I really understood. It's really almost like living in Mexico north in some ways. To me, even the way the state is run strikes me very Central American.

Julia Black [00:45:08] Interesting.

Michele Barard [00:45:09] Yeah. Because, you know, I lived in Guatemala for a while then Mexico for a while. It has that same kind of slow inefficiency, the same disrespect for people's time that I experienced living in Central America. And so, I didn't realize the extent of it until I moved here. It really you know, it's really an interesting phenomenon. But if you were down south, you would you would be more familiar or from the East Coast even probably you would be more familiar with that term. So much of what we have going on in the United States and the energy does change when you cross the mountains. I think I told you that.

Julia Black [00:45:46] Yeah. You did tell me that.

Michele Barard [00:45:47] The energy completely changes when you cross the mountains. I think people are things are more mixed up here. You'll see people of different types walking together, talking together and hanging out together in a way that you sometimes don't see down south, except that the younger people. But I can't speak to North, really, because I haven't lived been north of the D.C. area. But what I also saw here that I thought was interesting was I was going into the Catholic Church because, you know, I grew up Catholic. So occasionally I'll wander into those places and. People are letting out the church when I was going into the little chapel next to the church and. I was looked at kind of weird and I'm like, why am I being looked at kind of weird? There was only one black person in the entire church, and it was a huge Catholic church, huge. And I was so surprised. I was like, OK, first of all, this is really unfriendly for people leaving church. If you're leaving the church, you should be happy. You should be smiling at folks. I'm just saying. But it was really interesting.

Julia Black [00:46:56] And that tells me that you didn't know that you weren't raised in a Catholic church in California. And you were absolutely raised in a Southern Catholic Church. Because I have I have yet to meet anybody that leaves the catholic church feeling super happy.

Michele Barard [00:47:12] Oh, my God.

Julia Black [00:47:15] And in fact, like just to just to put just to put a fine point on it. My ex-husband is Episcopalian and we I I'd go to services.

Michele Barard [00:47:24] That’s just Catholic light, honey. My ex-husband is Episcopalian.

Julia Black [00:47:28] And even. And even for Catholic light. Right. Is that he and his mom would like dance during the service. And they were the only people in the whole service that were like dancing and having fun with it. And the first couple times I remember thinking, this is not appropriate, you’re not allowed dance in here.

Michele Barard [00:47:47] We'll just see. You know, I didn't go to black Catholic churches. I grew up in a black Catholic school. And in fact, my mom was from Mississippi. She was actually a Baptist. She converted to Catholicism to marry my dad. And so, when we used to go to Mississippi to see her people and we'd be in Baptist church and those folks were whooping in Hollering and stuff. It used to sit. I used to like. I was I don't know what's going on here. When I was a kid, I would freak out.

Julia Black [00:48:20] It is so very un-Catholic.

Michele Barard [00:48:20] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. You grew up in a white Catholic church. You did not do that. No, the most excitement was at camp when you remember Catholic mass. When you were a kid, this kid's mass. They would let you do the song.

Julia Black [00:48:32] Yes.

Michele Barard [00:48:33] And if the devil doesn’t like it, he can sit on a tack. That was the most excitement in the church. I'm just saying.

Julia Black [00:48:39] No. And I remember, you know, it was really funny. I remember watching it. We're going way off topic here. But um Prince Harry and Meghan Marco's wedding. Yeah. And it was, you know, very Episcopalian, like, very solemn service. And the pastor that was giving the sermon was just like clearly from a black church.

Michele Barard [00:49:01] Oh, yeah.

Julia Black [00:49:02] And all you like, you're watching all of these very formal British people looking at him like he is the craziest person on the planet. I mean, it was I mean, and he gave a great sermon. He had great things to like. I really enjoyed watching it. But it was. But when they were panning out to the congregation, it was just so funny.

Michele Barard [00:49:29] They were crushed, probably. Oh, my God. I can only imagine I'm been to England once I get a little imagine now. I mean, and I grew up. I grew up again. I grew up in white Catholic churches. White Catholic school. So, I get it. I totally get it. But people would leave happy. It was it was a different environment. But the race dynamics here are different.

Julia Black [00:49:50] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:49:51] But I think that we can. I think it's not. Impossible. I think we have to have discussions. I think we have to talk to one another. You know what I mean? I'm not one of the challenges. And I think I may have mentioned this to you before. There's actually a chef who is a black chef who's who is teaching about. Antebellum African cooking, you know, cooking that was done by the enslaved people on those plantations. And he's cooking the meals and he's teaching about the cooking and he's using that as a tool to teach. And again, it's mostly white people go to these things, apparently teach them about. Being enslaved. Teaching in a more realistic context, not the romanticized version of it. No, not that kind of Gone with the Wind version of it that we tend to embrace in the United States. And our people are very uncomfortable with that. But we have to be willing to be uncomfortable. You know what I mean?

Julia Black [00:50:57] No, it's true. You know, and I think. One of the things that I've appreciated about kind of our relationship and my relationship with other with other black friends that I've had is that if there is something that is brought up as a race issue and I clearly don't agree. For whatever reason I'll go or at my initial thought is to disagree. Then I'll go, hey, can we talk about some race related, you know? And sometimes my black friends are like, ugh OK.

Michele Barard [00:51:31] Oh, please.

Julia Black [00:51:31] You know. You know, and sometimes you know. And which. Which I get right. Because this race is a normal part of your everyday life. Like you don't like this is this is this is the norm for you. But if I'm if I'm trying to. Get somebody else's perspective. I have to ask these questions.

Michele Barard [00:51:54] Yeah.

Julia Black [00:51:55] I just do. I have to. You know, there's no. Like I said, I read I read Secret Life of Bees. And I and I loved it, but it never occurred. And maybe if I had reread it. I mean, there are books that I read and reread and reread. And that one wasn't one of them just because I haven't got it still on my bookshelf. It's not one of the books I got rid of. It's on my re-reading list. I just haven't done it yet. You know, maybe I would have seen it when I when I when I reread it. But, you know, until we kind of have these discussions, whether it's something that happens in the news or in a book or in a movie, there's no way that I'm gonna know.

Michele Barard [00:52:33] Right.

Julia Black [00:52:34] You know, and there are you know, there are people. You know, white or black or Hispanic or whatever, but don't want to have these conversations. You know, when.

Michele Barard [00:52:47] That's and that's fair because it's fair, it's exhausting sometimes days and especially now. I mean, come on. The United States is a mess in terms of the way we're communicating with one another, whether you like certain people like or dislike certain people. It doesn't matter. I think it's important that we communicate with one another because. Anybody who's read a book knows that when people don't talk to one another, what happens? That's where the conflict comes.

Julia Black [00:53:17] That's where a conflict comes in. No, you're right. And I get and I have at least, you know, I have a pretty good understanding of the exhaustion. Right. Is that there have been one of the things that has been that I have made a point of doing in the last few years is with male friends and male family members that start to kind of roll their eyes about, you know, me too. Or women who are making rape accusations or sexual harassment accusations like I stopped like before five years ago. I wouldn't have spoken up at all. I would have just kind of brushed it off and left and actually physically left the conversation now. And now I'm making myself not right because what I'm finding is that there is a lot of men who have very good hearts and whose hearts are in the right place that have no idea. They have none. And, you know, there is that. You know, and so. And the reason why I never liked called anybody out on it was always because I can have this conversation and no one's going to listen to me. And I'm exhausted about it already. And it's in my mind all the time already. And the last thing I want to do is have this conversation with someone who's not gonna listen.

Michele Barard [00:54:42] But you know what's interesting, because that means you and I have to have another discussion because I have very distinct feelings on the whole me too thing, too.

Julia Black [00:54:52] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:54:53] And you know I touched on it a little bit because there's a racial component there, too.

Julia Black [00:54:57] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:54:58] The #MeToo movement actually was started by black women, but until these white women started saying something, it didn't matter. It didn't matter is the way that I perceive it. And it's I think that gets into the way that black bought black bodies or exploited in the United States both for work and as. Receivers of violence in a lot of ways. So, but that we're going to have to have another discussion on that. But I understand what you're saying. It's if you are concerned that the person is not going to hear you, not that you want them to be convinced by you, but to know you want them to hear you and to acknowledge that what you're saying has validity and maybe be willing to think about it and you don't feel like that's going to happen. Then why have the discussion?

Julia Black [00:55:46] Yeah.

Michele Barard [00:55:46] But I think it's important that we talk and I know I am. I am, though, of the opinion that it is not my job to educate white people about black folks, about what we need, what we want, what our history is and stuff like that. That's not my job. I and I think a lot of black people have that perspective now. Like it it's not my job to teach you. There's a whole bunch of black folks who are willing to do that. And I'm not I'm not unwilling to discuss with someone like you who's open in, you know, willing to express opinions and your opinions and, you know, all of that. But I also feel like it's not my day job. You know what I mean? I'll talk to you because I love you. I'm not trying to talk to everybody.

Julia Black [00:56:37] I know, but that's where it has to start.

Michele Barard [00:56:39] Right.

Julia Black [00:56:40] And I think, you know, I don't think I mean, I'm not going to you know, if I hear if I hear a man in the supermarket, you know. Talking about making some misogynist comment, I'm not gonna call him out on it, you know.

Michele Barard [00:56:56] You can give him the side eye though.

Julia Black [00:56:57] I could and I do. You know, and sometimes, you know, even with the men that I know, sometimes it's just as simple, you know, that was misogynist. And that's all it needs. And then they go, Yeah, I know. But I was joking. Yeah. It doesn't matter, you know?

Michele Barard [00:57:21] I know. We're going to have to have another discussion because I'm so tired of people getting like we can't laugh anymore.

Julia Black [00:57:28] Totally. I'm not saying we can't laugh at it. I'll laugh at it, but I'll point it out.

Michele Barard [00:57:32] I just think I just think it's so, you know, everything is. I don't know, man. I'm going to I'm going to call out white women on this. Y'all make workplaces very, very unfun that’s all I'm gonna say. I'm glad I mostly work from home now because I cannot I cannot be in and I've been and I'm not going to call it, you know, where I was going. Yeah. Two days a week. And I never felt so uncomfortable in my entire life. It I'm like, this is boring and horrible. People can't talk to each other. They can't have normal conversations because everybody's terrified. I don't think that's how it's supposed to be, we're supposed to be able to interact with one another, you know. And no people are supposed to say mean stuff. But I don't think that everything is a crisis, y'all. I'm gonna say it. But we'll talk about that.

Julia Black [00:58:27] We'll talk about it.

Michele Barard [00:58:28] We'll have another long bonus to true talk like this one. I don't know if there's any upshot to this. We usually end with a some takeaways with some things that people can do. I think if there's an upshot or if there's a takeaway, it's, hey, talk to your friends. There's nothing wrong with talking with one another in a respectful manner.

Julia Black [00:58:48] Yeah. Talk to people and talk to people that have different points of view. You know, to people that are from different cultures and have different backgrounds and get their take on things, you know. And you know, and it may be something simple, like starting a book club, you know, with everybody, you know.

Michele Barard [00:59:06] Read the help, reread the secret life of bees.

Julia Black [00:59:10] Just choose books. I mean, you can you can choose books, you know, like the help and secret life of bees that were written, you know, by white women. And then you could choose books like Beloved and The Color Purple that were written by black women and discuss the difference of how of how, you know, the black characters or are portrayed.

Michele Barard [00:59:32] You know what I did with my kids one time? I mean, I did a black exploitation film festival. Where we watch black exploitation films from the 70s and talked about them afterwards. Like what? What themes you see, what kinds of you know, what interests? We sat down and watched. I also did that with Spike Lee films I took and we just did a whole series of Spike Lee films. Let's talk about what is the difference. What is the difference between John Hughes films and Spike Lee because they are producing films around the same time, right? What are the themes in the John Hughes films? What are the concerns of the white characters? What are the concerns of the characters? Again, largely teenagers, college age people. What are the concerns? Look at the differences between these films. What does that tell you about your society? So, there's so many things that we can do in small groups. Whether, it's with our kids or with our friends or pulling together strangers. And let's say let's have a talk about this. Let's do something different and discuss these things, because the United States never had, and some might argue this is this worked and didn't work in South Africa, but South Africa had their truth and reconciliation panel or, you know, they had that. And we've never, ever had anything like that to at least try to try to acknowledge. The challenges, and that's why there's so much, I think. Discomfort here. In Germany. They are constantly aware of the dangers of. The Hitlers of the world.

Julia Black [01:01:24] Oh. As a woman who is married to a German man whose mother was born and raised in Germany after World War 2, I absolutely can tell you that.

Michele Barard [01:01:36] That is true. They are in hyper aware.

Julia Black [01:01:38] They are hyper hyper aware.

Michele Barard [01:01:41] And for all the challenges they have in that region right now. They are spending time combating it. Yeah, they know the danger.

Julia Black [01:01:49] And in fact, I was kind of I haven't seen any of the commentary yet, but there was that shooting at the synagogue yesterday. And I was shocked because they are so hyper, they are so hyper aware of it. The reason why they didn't get why they didn't, why they kept all the concentration camps. They did it because they want to make sure that everybody knows this.

Michele Barard [01:02:13] And everybody remembers. Yeah.

Julia Black [01:02:15] They've been it's it is absolutely and completely ingrained in the culture.

Michele Barard [01:02:20] And that's the thing that's really interesting because it's different from here in the United States. This is something that this is, I think, another discussion, because even here in the United States, there's this inclination to say we should always remember the Holocaust. Remember the Holocaust? Remember the Holocaust. But there is not a single person that will say we should always remember the. Enslavement. Rape, murder. Absolute genocide of an entire continent of people.

Julia Black [01:03:00] Yeah, you're right.

Michele Barard [01:03:02] We're supposed to forget about what happened as far as African people are concerned. And that's why I think that it's important that we have these discussions because we may never come to agree with one another on different things, that it's not that we have to agree, but we need to understand one another.

Julia Black [01:03:18] Yeah.

Michele Barard [01:03:18] I have always said if you do not know someone, it's so much easier to distrust them. And it's not always an issue where you have to be distrustful if you don't trust somebody. It’s because you're afraid of them. You know somebody, you're going to be less likely to be afraid.

Julia Black [01:03:36] It's true.

Michele Barard [01:03:38] Julia, thank you for doing this.

Julia Black [01:03:40] Thank you. This was I. You know, these are these are things that I don't feel comfortable talking about. So, the fact that we were able to do that means a lot to me.

Michele Barard [01:03:50] Means a lot to me, too. You're awesome. Thank you.

Julia Black [01:03:53] So are you. Thank you.

Michele Barard [01:03:57] All right, y'all, thanks for listening to that special episode of True Talk. If you guys liked this format, send me a note. Let me know. You can find me online, Facebook, Instagram, as @UrbanBookEditor. Go ahead and send me a note. Let me know if you like this format. Julia and I are probably going to start doing more of these and this longer format, a little bit deeper discussion, more serious topics and really get into some things. And we want to know what you guys think and what kind of topics you want us to cover. Thanks a lot. You guys be good. Stay mindful and remain prayerful. Peace and blessings, y’all.